These phony "progressives" and "leftists" who supported Obama using a bunch of lies and half-truths and then turned around and sold Obamacare the same way they sold Obama are now using the same methods to sell us on this "green economy." Just read this FaceBook discussion...
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Carl Davidson
Lorenzo Canizares As you can see in the picture above, California Valley Solar actually consists of a number of fairly distinct arrays -- ten, to be exact. So while the entire site is 4,700 acres, less than one-third, 1,500 acres, is covered in panels or buildings. NRG counts the remaining 3,200 acres as “permanently conserved and managed to meet conservation objectives for a range of species.”
- Carl Davidson Not sure, but even if it's a straight-up 'green capitalist' project, it's our 'pop front' ally against the carbon burners, and the kind of 'high road' capital that will play a role for a while even in the mixed economy of a 21st century socialist order--subject to its laws and regulations, of course. Naturally, we should be advocates of developing these as public or worker-owned enterprises.
- Lorenzo Canizares NRG is a private company that is publicly traded. What they are doing is helpful to our environment.
Sally Robbins How is this any kind of popular front ally? Why don't you tell us how much people are paying for electricity who are on this system? Every time they put these green projects up we pay more in our electric bills. Give ALL the facts not just what you want us to hear. Reminds me of the way you sold Obama. Just part of the facts leaving out the bad. A popular front would be struggling for public ownership of the entire energy industry which would eliminate profits and lower our electric bills.
Why don't you want to talk about profits?
Why don't you want to discuss what we end up paying in our monthly electric bills?- Sally Robbins If you don't call for nationalization now you aren't going to call for it later. Who are you kidding.
- Sally Robbins Look at the hundreds of billions of dollars in government bailouts of this "green economy" that it took to get to this? You haven't figured any of this in.
- Lorenzo Canizares The Chinese has shown how you can use private investment towards building a humongous middle class.
- Carl Davidson Sally, what do you think 'public ownership' is? Along with worker-ownership and 'high road' clean and green enterprises growing under a favorable green industrial policy, is what all of us should favor--as opposed to the TRILLIONS subsidizing our current defact carbon-burning-military-industrial policy.
- Sally Robbins Just hollow talk about "broad united front." No substance to it if you forget about the people paying the electric bills. I don't expect higher utility bills to be the result of an extremely heavily subsidized government industry like solar/wind. What we are subsidizing is massive profits when what we should be subsidizing is our electric bills--- our taxes being used against us. I don't see any basis for a united front pursuing such a collaborationist policy with big-business. Any excuse you can find to defend and excuse Obama and big-business you are using.
Again, you tell us just part of the story while hiding the full story.
When you volunteer to pay my electric bill then feed me this bs about your united front with capital and corrupt politicians being bribed in the name of "green energy."
There is something drastically wrong when "green" means bigger profits from robbing workers.
You know what you can do with your "green energy" and "united front." Shove them both where the sun doesn't shine.
If you think working people will join a "movement" to increase their electric bills you are cuckoo.
I have never seen anyone twist and pervert anything as much as Carl Davidson.
- Carl Davidson Sally, the most heavily subsidized industries generating your electric bills NOW are oil, nukes and coal. If you want to keep it that way, you get an increase in climate disasters along with your power bills. Time for a new approach.
Sally Robbins What's "new" about your approach? Big-business has simply found a way to rake in bigger profits. Who are you kidding? Solar/wind are both part of the big-business scheme to rake in bigger profits. Pretty soon we will have solar powered drones and you will hail that as progress, too. Put an end to the military/industrial complex, manufacturing for defense/wars and wars and you get rid of the biggest climate change problem but you don't advocate peace as a solution to climate change and this approach isn't a part of your "united front" with big capital.
Why don't you tell us how many coal and nuclear power plants we could get rid of if we weren't producing for wars? You "united front" partners wouldn't want to hear about this because they are making big bucks every which way producing for wars. Including producing electricity.
The more wars Obama fights the more energy gets consumed. Do I need to draw you pictures?- Carl Davidson All businesses make profits, Sally, or they don't remain in business. They even make them under socialism, whether they are public, cooperative or private. The question is who benefits and controls the surplus value. We're unlikely to have solar-powered drones, but in any case, what is new about solar power is that it produces little or nothing by way of pollutants, and the source is inexhaustible. And constructing a 'Smart Grid' to improve power distribution would be a massive job-creating enterprise for the unemployed of all skill levels. The Green New Deal is a worthy set of structural reforms to fight for full employment, as well as a healthier environment. I'm surprised that even you don't find it appealing.
- Lorenzo Canizares If Sally thinks the talk about United Front is empty talk, I would love to have explained how are we going to defeat this economic and military juggernaut that represents at most 2% of the people.
- Sally Robbins You won't doing it by supporting Obama, the Democrats or capitalism I can tell you that. You and Carl Davidson both use left sounding rhetoric to cover up your betrayal of the working class. The fact is, there is no united front. There isn't going to be any united front with these business interests simply because they will never participate in any movement with you except ones supporting the Democrats where they lead the two of you around and get you to support Democrats. The next thing you will be telling us is that Hillary is the new leader of the united people's front. The two of you are fools.
- Carl Davidson Just in case you're wondering, Lorenzo, the CCDS FB group has some people on it who do not wish us well. We don't mind disagreement and debate, but lack of civility can get you removed.about an hour ago
I find it interesting the most uncivil person on the left, Carl Davidson, is lecturing others about "civility."
Alan L. Maki
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